Rewrite
trench coat + shoes. Burberry
earring. Swarovski
tights. Falke
opposite
top + trousers. Louis Vuitton
shoes. Gina
Finding the magic is the running theme of our conversation with Phia Saban. Sitting down in late July to talk about Helena Targaryen in ‘House of the Dragon,’ and coming fresh from her stint as Solange in Jean Genet’s ‘The Maids,’ the two characters could not be more opposite. Saban talks about holding space for both and the emotional toll that comes with it, alongside the whimsy. With Solange, Saban embraced the crazy, the disgusting, the outright ferociousness and psychotic. To get to that place as an actor takes trust, she explains, and that trust was built hand in hand with co-stars Yerin Ha and Lydia Wilson. Once that foundation is built, you’re able to get away with just about anything, and there were times Saban even surprised herself on stage.
From the vicious, we move on to Helena, the kindest and gentlest of the ‘Greens.’ A victim of circumstance and a pawn in others’ political game, Helena deserves so much more than the hand she’s been dealt. Saban tapped into that childlike wonder, feeling that safety to once again make bold decisions, to get messy, and play. And despite the scale of the show and the eyes on it, she found herself basking in the moment and allowing herself to take in the talent around her and have fun with it.
Chatting with Schön! Phia Saban discusses holding herself up to unfair standards, the freedom of playing a ‘terrifying’ character and more.
I know you went to school for acting and started on stage. What were those formative years like before acting became the career?
I suppose I’m one of those people who always knew that this is what they wanted to do. My dad was an actor before I was born, so I had it in my mind as a job that was possible. Not that anybody encouraged it as the most feasible and stable career. I was definitely obsessed with stories and plays. From the earliest age I could, I always did the school play, and I really, really looked forward to that.
Every year was kind of the highlight of the year. Actually, when I was about 13 or 14, I was feeling depressed. I was a depressed teenager. My mom said to me, “Do you know the time of year that you’re the happiest? That you’re lit up? It’s when you’re doing the school play. So why don’t you apply and audition for the National Youth Theatre?” A lot of British actors go through the National Youth Theatre. When you get in, you do a two-week course in London. She was right.
I auditioned for that and got to do this two-week summer course. My age group was 14 to 18, and you’re all in these big groups and you’re together. Then you join with another group, and there’s this big performance with all of the people who did it that year. I always say jokingly, it kind of ruined my life because it was so amazing. I felt so euphoric being with all these people who loved it as much as I did. I met some of my best friends ever doing that. Then I had to go back to school and be a teenager for another six years. I think from that point, I was like, “If that’s what drama school is like, if that’s what being an actor is like, then I have to do this.”
I was very, very lucky because I had extremely supportive drama teachers at school. I was also definitely one of the keenest. I got to play really good parts that I would never now get to play in my career. It’s been the centre of my life in every way since I can remember.
Do you remember some of the parts you played in those early days?
I was the Queen of Hearts when I was at primary school. Then I was Bottom in A Midsummer Night’s Dream when I was like 14-ish, which I loved. I love doing Shakespeare. We did Shakespeare every summer, like the whole of summer. I was Wendy in Peter Pan. I was the Wicked Witch of the West. You know, if I wanted to play Hecuba in Trojan Women now, which I played when I was 15, I’d have to wait another 40 years. It’s kind of an amazing thing, kids doing these grown-up parts.
The one I always think of, because I was at a special age for me, was when I was about 17. I was Mercutio in Romeo and Juliet. I then auditioned with that, with the Queen Mab speech, when I went to drama school. It had a real impact.
On a list of things that you love, you said old movies where the kisses are just actors smushing their faces together. So, I have to ask: do you have a favourite movie where the actors are just “smushing?” What is your kind of comfort movie? Your go-to?
Oh, gosh, that’s such a good question. This isn’t necessarily one that’s highlighted, but it’s one I’ve thought about recently. I rewatched Roman Holiday, and I love that film so much. The chemistry with Gregory Peck and Audrey Hepburn is such a comfort. At my granny’s house, there used to be box sets. At my great-aunt’s house, they used to have Hepburn box sets. I remember watching Roman Holiday when I was a kid and being like, “Oh, my God.”
The films I’ve probably rewatched the most are School of Rock and E.T. It’s probably one of my favourite films of all time. I have to be in the exact right headspace for it because it destroys me. I watched it without my mom recently and texted her about it. She sent me a voice note and started crying. She hadn’t even watched it recently. It just hits on that thing about love and empathy.
I don’t know if you saw the clip, but Steven Spielberg was doing press for Disclosure Day, and the interviewer asked, “Does Elliot see E.T. again?” He says, “No, but he thinks about him.”
I have goosebumps! That last scene of them in the forest. Then he says to little Drew Barrymore, “Be good.” Oh, my God. I think it’s perfect. The way Spielberg manages to inject so much purity and get across that childlike wonder feeling without patronizing children. As adults, we kind of push that down, down, down. That feeling of wonder. But when you watch a film like E.T., you’re like, “It’s still in there.”
On the other end of the spectrum, on the hate list you made, you said you dislike people who obsess over making the right decision.
It’s not other people who do it. It’s me doing it. Anyone else doing it? I totally understand. It’s something that has come up for me a lot, because acting is about instinct and intuition. Speaking of childlike wonder, it’s almost easier to have access to and a connection with that. I felt that I took that for granted when I was in drama school. I was like, “I’m capable and life is peeling out before me. I can’t wait to go in.”
It says so much about being 21, but I was graduating, and I had this amazing mentor, Paul Jesson, who’s an amazing actor who went to Guildhall for many, many years. I was very, very lucky to be given him as a mentor. We used to meet up in my third year, and he’d ask me, “How are you feeling about graduating?” I said, “I’m so excited. I’m even excited for my first rejection because then I know I’m a real actor.” He looked at me and said, “Let’s see how long that lasts.” I was so open and excited about everything, and I think I still am. I feel like I’m almost at a new beginning again.
For a phase, I felt very in my head and insecure about the work I was doing. I was overthinking so much. I felt like I lost this sense of instinct and intuition that I really had before.
The irony is that I could tell I wasn’t happy because I was being extremely binary about acting. I’d do a scene on House of the Dragon, and I’d give myself a “yes” or a “no.” Of course, the irony there is that what we’re trying to do with acting and art is to live in the nuance, and there’s not a right or a wrong. And so, I had to go on quite an internal journey of trying to get this binary thinking out of my head because I was just really getting stuck on making “correct” decisions. And that doesn’t exist. There’s just a decision.
But it’s very hard with acting sometimes because, especially with film and TV, this thing of everything being possible. Then suddenly you’ve done the scene, and at some point, you’re going to watch it, and you’re like, “Well, that’s that.” It’s hard not to attack your own work.
blazer, bolero + skirt. Bora Aksu
shoes. Gina
earrings. Tasaki
opposite
dress + jewellery. Valentino
I read in another interview that you held yourself to unfair standards given the scope and size of the show. How do you overcome that?
For me, it was about having a reality check. One of the things that really helped me have a reality check was to go back and do what felt very pure and honest to me in the beginning, which is make-do theatre: to work and create and be imaginative and laugh and get things wrong with my friends. A really close friend of mine, Jules (Julia) Head, who’s a director, directed me in an audio drama for Audible.
It was basically us and these other amazing actors in this booth for two weeks, nine hours a day. I felt my heart kind of break open again. This is what it used to feel like. Now, I’m not scared of that. I can just do that. Then I can take that into the work that I’m feeling intimidated by. It keeps going back to the childlike wonder, doesn’t it? It was about trying to get back there.
I’d like to touch on The Maids. You captioned a photo on Instagram with “My skin, my blisters,” and then put in parentheses, “my sisters.” Can you talk to us about that caption and forging that bond with Yerin (Ha) and Lydia (Wilson)? How much translated onto the stage?
I forgot that I wrote that because that’s Cockney rhyming slang. My skin and blister are Cockney rhyming slang for my sister. I adore that expression so much because I think it’s so true about sisterhood. It’s much grittier and more hands-on and aggressive and sensory and messy.
That thing about your skin, I feel like it’s kind of a good metaphor, because you might think of skin as something to be polished. It’s this big organ, and it’s got these freckles and hairs. If I’m stressed or whatever, I’ll break out and get blotchy and get rashes all over, and it’s this reactive thing. Anyway, that was a complete sidetrack. It kind of speaks to the relationship with Lydia and Yerin because in The Maids, it’s a play about carnal need and people who are cruel to each other. It’s about two sisters who love each other so much that it tips into this really unhealthy thing.
The play is also about the relationship with Madame, who Yerin plays, and they’re so obsessed with her. They think she’s so beautiful that they want to destroy her and kill her. We had to do and say and feel really awful things towards each other. What was so funny about it is that we fell in love with each other so much. We got so close that it meant that we could really enjoy being disgusting to each other.
It was such a cool experience because it’s only if you really trust people and love each other that much that you can explore all of that darkness. It’s so exciting because you can go anywhere and do anything, and you know that they’re completely present and with you and going to find it fun. We were really pushing the limits. With Lydia, we played sisters, and we would get on so well with each other in real life. On stage, if one of us tripped up on a word or took a wrong step, we’d be pointing at each other, humiliating each other. We loved it so much. It was so intense, but it was so fun.
Solange and Claire are both delightfully psychotic and murderous. How freeing was it for you to tap into that? Was there a moment you took yourself by surprise?
Oh my gosh, yes. That thing you say about surprise is really interesting because I’ve been thinking a lot since doing The Maids that that feeling of “surprise” is really what I’m going for. That’s how I want to surprise myself because I think that keeps things alive. I think that it made me realize, especially doing it, the difference between an English audience and an American audience. Both lovely audiences. But in London, we’re in a much smaller space at the Donmar, and we were very close to people, and we were in their space. Whereas there was something quite a bit more epic about the New York staging. It made me realize, taking in both those audiences, that a laugh comes out of surprise and a cry comes out of surprise.
That’s why theatre is so incredible, because I could do that to myself on stage and not know it was coming. You’re so together with the audience in that moment of, like, letting it be whatever it’s going to be.
Disgustingness-wise, it was so freeing and also so terrifying to play a character who needs so much and really wears that on the outside of her body. It felt amazing because, in reality, I don’t want anyone to see me and think I’m a goblin. We all feel that. As an actor, you feel outside of work that you want to look appealing, and you want people to think that you’re appealing. There’s this weird feeling of having to be a good palette to be projected upon so that you can be imagined as anything.
Getting to be inside of a character who feels disgusting and behaves in this really animal way felt amazing. But it was also challenging because I got paranoid. I was like, “The audience must think I’m a freak and they don’t like me.” I was having to check myself because all of that character stuff is coming through. If they do feel uncomfortable, then that’s cool as well. That should also be the point of it. I was creating stories in my head about people in the audience and what they were thinking about me. I had to keep checking back in: “Don’t go insane. Just don’t go insane.”
blouse. Stella McCartney
skirt. 16Arlington
shoes. Paris Texas
rings. Cartier
opposite
trench coat. Burberry
How did you walk away from a persona like that at the end of every performance? Because it sounds like you’re going from the highest high and then the curtain closes and you drop.
In London, I think what was gorgeous was that I could see my friends and my boyfriend, and none of them are actors. I mean, sorry, a lot of my friends are actors, but the ones I could see have nothing to do with the show is what I mean. I could just be completely honest and check back in with the world. Be interested in other people’s lives and not just be that actress who’s having a moment, you know what I mean?
In New York, it was more challenging, which was also interesting because we were outside of our routines and our daily lives. But it’s so interesting you asked me that question because I feel like I’ve very recently had a real, quite conscious expulsion of the character. The album that I was listening to the whole time I was playing Solange was Lorde’s Virgin album. My boyfriend and I went to see her on the Ultrasound tour. We were in France, and we saw her in an amphitheatre. It was so incredible.
When she played the song that was my Solange song, I made sure to have a moment when it ended of just being like, “Thank you,” and let her go. I needed to consciously, lovingly expel this character. I had this amazing full-circle moment where I was using this album to help me for the part, then to hear it out loud and to see Lorde performing it—she’s such an incredible performer—it felt like a really cool experience and the perfect place to let Solange go.
You’ve lived in Helena’s skin for so long now. Three seasons. One of the advantages of there not being a whole lot of source material to pull from is that you get to really play around. How do you build a character up from the page, whether it’s the source material or from the script? How do you figure out what choices work for a character versus what doesn’t? How do you find that magic?
How do I find the magic? That’s such a good question. I think with Helena there was quite a lot of juicy information in the script. She’s half-sister to the promised queen, had these two brothers who are very intense personalities themselves. The only sister with a mother who’s been forced into this incredible political situation, with a father who’s dying, all of that stuff, on top of the fact that I knew that she was quite misunderstood, loved these insects and all of that. To me, already, that is a lot of delicious information to build a character from.
Then, after that, genuinely, I had ideas. When you’re on that set, and you get to put the wig on and that costume on, I felt something really clarify then. It started as, “Okay, so she’s this princess and she’s wearing this dress, but what if she hates wearing the dress? What if she’s uncomfortable in the dress? How would I stand if I’m trying to will myself out of this situation? How do I hold myself when I need to escape into my mind and I want to just be in this tiny world?”
What’s really, really fun about playing Helena is that I’ve always felt this permission to do whatever I want. Which is so nice. It’s such a gift to be in these high-stakes situations and get to play against it. She has a quiet heroism to her, but she never has to be the hero. From season one to now, you’re making these little choices, and then you see them make the cut.
I have to ask: there’s a scene where she’s dancing by herself. Was that in the script, or was that all you?
I think all of that came from the fact that we had a great dance teacher when we were doing that. She was teaching us all these specific moves. It was this cool combination of something kind of mystical, but would then vaguely be based on. Harry (Collett) and I really found it funny to play with the fact that Helena might get carried away. She’s never been asked to dance before. Suddenly it’s happening — he’s not freestyling but really excited about it.
I think that we went off the set moves quite a bit. There’s a chance that it could look like I’m dancing by myself, but it’s because Harry’s doing the correct moves, and Helena’s doing the wrong moves. It might be that because she’s got carried away.
Another moment that sticks out this season is, “I will not let any beast be harmed.” The look that she gives Alicent is like, “Mom, did I do good?” Even though they’re in this really heinous situation, she’s looking for approval.
I love that. Liv (Olivia Cooke) and I spend so much time together because we do everything together. I feel really relaxed around Liv; she’s so present. I feel like anything I give her or she gives me, we can really build that mother-daughter relationship out of it. I remember doing a few takes where I offered to do that look to her. I said, “Maybe they won’t include that,” because this is all quite serious and the stakes are high. But I was genuinely surprised when I watched that episode for the first time. I was like, “Oh, it made it in.”
That scene alone has been the centre of fan edits on TikTok.
That’s so nice. People are really into the chicken line as well, it seems. [laughs]
I love that we’re also seeing Helena putting her foot down with Alicent this season, biting back a little bit, refusing the tea, having an outburst. She is the most innocent of the Greens, but I don’t blame her for being absolutely fed up. What has been your favourite moment playing Helena so far?
My gosh, that’s such a good question. It’s not something I really thought about. I wonder if I haven’t thought about it because it’s intense to think that it’s been all these years and, you know, it won’t be forever. In season one, we had a scene where we were all together at the dinner table. It was Visery’s (Paddy Considine) last dinner. All of us were there, which has never ever happened again. It felt really gorgeous, like a twisted Christmas dinner.
We all knew we were never going to be together again as well. I remember I sat opposite Rhys (Ifans), and Liv and I were next to Tom (Glynn-Carney) and Ewan (Mitchell), and then, you know, Matt (Smith) and Emma (D’Arcy) and Phoebs (Phoebe Campbell) and Bethany (Antonia) and Harry and Elliot (Grihault) and all of them. I’m just going to list everyone that’s in the show. [laughs] It was this amazing thing. I was looking around at all of these amazing actors, but also all these characters and watching everybody make these specific choices for these characters that are never going to make it on camera, but they’re doing it anyway. I mean, people are doing interesting things all the time, which has been such a gift of working on this show.
I think that felt like a really big moment for me as Helena, because when you work with actors that are that talented, that acting is, I mean, it’s a cliché, but it really is for free. I was immediately transported to, “What’s my relationship with all these people? What’s my relationship in this family? What’s my relationship to this world?” That was easy, because everyone is so fucking good.
That’s a very cheap answer. But that was the last time we were all together. So, it will always be in my heart.
top. Louis Vuitton
opposite
full look. Prada
I love that answer, are you kidding? Not cheap at all. What has playing Helena taught you about yourself as a person and as an actor?
That’s such a good question. Thank you for stroking my ego. I still feel like I’m in the very early stages of my career, so this could all change. I could have another crisis tomorrow. But for now, I’m being soppy because I’m looking back at it all.
I think I feel like I’m learning about just trusting that I know the character. Therefore, the choices I make couldn’t be too weird. It couldn’t be too much. I trust myself with her, and I feel like I know her. So, I feel free. I’m trying to let my positive experience of playing Helena teach me that it’s worth it to just follow my instincts and to really try and keep going with that, because that’s what feels good to do. So why would I inhibit that to be safe? You have to trust the amazing people that you work with, that if you do something absolutely bonkers, they’ll just edit it out. It’s okay. Do you know what I mean?
That must feel very freeing to be able to trust yourself and to trust the people around you to be a safety net. Like, if you fall, they’ll catch you.
I’m working on it. I love Helena. Something that I’ve thought about a lot with her is this feeling that she grows up in a world that values what’s useful and what’s powerful, and what’s going to get you where you need to go. I really respect and love and think it’s brave that she loves things, not for how useful they are, and not even for how literally beautiful something is, but for the beauty that she can find in it. She sees the world in such an interesting way, and with so much sensitivity. I just love that, and anytime I get to spend in that zone is happy time.
Lastly, if you could rewrite Helena’s fate, no spoilers, obviously, what would you like her ideal ending to be?
I’m going to give you a political answer. I think that the story is the story, and it’s quite Helena of me, but it’s the way it was always going to go. I think that I just want her to feel love. That’s really what I want. I just want her to feel love. So, that’s such a political answer, but that’s what I think.
A political answer, but a valid answer. Honestly, I just want her to take Dreamfyre and her kids and get the hell out of Westeros.
Also, very, very valid.
dress, shoes + jewellery. Valentino
photography. Simon Lipman @ Ray Brown Represents
fashion. Harriet Nicolson @ Stella Creative Artists
talent. Phia Saban
casting. Emma Fleming
hair. Sandra Hahnel @ Caren Agency using Ouai
make up. Brooke Simons @ Caren Agency
production. Clara La Rosa
interview. Dana Reboe
editor. Kelsey Barnes
location. Town Hall Hotel
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trench coat + shoes. Burberry
earring. Swarovski
tights. Falke
opposite
top + trousers. Louis Vuitton
shoes. Gina
Finding the magic is the running theme of our conversation with Phia Saban. Sitting down in late July to talk about Helena Targaryen in ‘House of the Dragon,’ and coming fresh from her stint as Solange in Jean Genet’s ‘The Maids,’ the two characters could not be more opposite. Saban talks about holding space for both and the emotional toll that comes with it, alongside the whimsy. With Solange, Saban embraced the crazy, the disgusting, the outright ferociousness and psychotic. To get to that place as an actor takes trust, she explains, and that trust was built hand in hand with co-stars Yerin Ha and Lydia Wilson. Once that foundation is built, you’re able to get away with just about anything, and there were times Saban even surprised herself on stage.
From the vicious, we move on to Helena, the kindest and gentlest of the ‘Greens.’ A victim of circumstance and a pawn in others’ political game, Helena deserves so much more than the hand she’s been dealt. Saban tapped into that childlike wonder, feeling that safety to once again make bold decisions, to get messy, and play. And despite the scale of the show and the eyes on it, she found herself basking in the moment and allowing herself to take in the talent around her and have fun with it.
Chatting with Schön! Phia Saban discusses holding herself up to unfair standards, the freedom of playing a ‘terrifying’ character and more.
I know you went to school for acting and started on stage. What were those formative years like before acting became the career?
I suppose I’m one of those people who always knew that this is what they wanted to do. My dad was an actor before I was born, so I had it in my mind as a job that was possible. Not that anybody encouraged it as the most feasible and stable career. I was definitely obsessed with stories and plays. From the earliest age I could, I always did the school play, and I really, really looked forward to that.
Every year was kind of the highlight of the year. Actually, when I was about 13 or 14, I was feeling depressed. I was a depressed teenager. My mom said to me, “Do you know the time of year that you’re the happiest? That you’re lit up? It’s when you’re doing the school play. So why don’t you apply and audition for the National Youth Theatre?” A lot of British actors go through the National Youth Theatre. When you get in, you do a two-week course in London. She was right.
I auditioned for that and got to do this two-week summer course. My age group was 14 to 18, and you’re all in these big groups and you’re together. Then you join with another group, and there’s this big performance with all of the people who did it that year. I always say jokingly, it kind of ruined my life because it was so amazing. I felt so euphoric being with all these people who loved it as much as I did. I met some of my best friends ever doing that. Then I had to go back to school and be a teenager for another six years. I think from that point, I was like, “If that’s what drama school is like, if that’s what being an actor is like, then I have to do this.”
I was very, very lucky because I had extremely supportive drama teachers at school. I was also definitely one of the keenest. I got to play really good parts that I would never now get to play in my career. It’s been the centre of my life in every way since I can remember.
Do you remember some of the parts you played in those early days?
I was the Queen of Hearts when I was at primary school. Then I was Bottom in A Midsummer Night’s Dream when I was like 14-ish, which I loved. I love doing Shakespeare. We did Shakespeare every summer, like the whole of summer. I was Wendy in Peter Pan. I was the Wicked Witch of the West. You know, if I wanted to play Hecuba in Trojan Women now, which I played when I was 15, I’d have to wait another 40 years. It’s kind of an amazing thing, kids doing these grown-up parts.
The one I always think of, because I was at a special age for me, was when I was about 17. I was Mercutio in Romeo and Juliet. I then auditioned with that, with the Queen Mab speech, when I went to drama school. It had a real impact.
On a list of things that you love, you said old movies where the kisses are just actors smushing their faces together. So, I have to ask: do you have a favourite movie where the actors are just “smushing?” What is your kind of comfort movie? Your go-to?
Oh, gosh, that’s such a good question. This isn’t necessarily one that’s highlighted, but it’s one I’ve thought about recently. I rewatched Roman Holiday, and I love that film so much. The chemistry with Gregory Peck and Audrey Hepburn is such a comfort. At my granny’s house, there used to be box sets. At my great-aunt’s house, they used to have Hepburn box sets. I remember watching Roman Holiday when I was a kid and being like, “Oh, my God.”
The films I’ve probably rewatched the most are School of Rock and E.T. It’s probably one of my favourite films of all time. I have to be in the exact right headspace for it because it destroys me. I watched it without my mom recently and texted her about it. She sent me a voice note and started crying. She hadn’t even watched it recently. It just hits on that thing about love and empathy.
I don’t know if you saw the clip, but Steven Spielberg was doing press for Disclosure Day, and the interviewer asked, “Does Elliot see E.T. again?” He says, “No, but he thinks about him.”
I have goosebumps! That last scene of them in the forest. Then he says to little Drew Barrymore, “Be good.” Oh, my God. I think it’s perfect. The way Spielberg manages to inject so much purity and get across that childlike wonder feeling without patronizing children. As adults, we kind of push that down, down, down. That feeling of wonder. But when you watch a film like E.T., you’re like, “It’s still in there.”
On the other end of the spectrum, on the hate list you made, you said you dislike people who obsess over making the right decision.
It’s not other people who do it. It’s me doing it. Anyone else doing it? I totally understand. It’s something that has come up for me a lot, because acting is about instinct and intuition. Speaking of childlike wonder, it’s almost easier to have access to and a connection with that. I felt that I took that for granted when I was in drama school. I was like, “I’m capable and life is peeling out before me. I can’t wait to go in.”
It says so much about being 21, but I was graduating, and I had this amazing mentor, Paul Jesson, who’s an amazing actor who went to Guildhall for many, many years. I was very, very lucky to be given him as a mentor. We used to meet up in my third year, and he’d ask me, “How are you feeling about graduating?” I said, “I’m so excited. I’m even excited for my first rejection because then I know I’m a real actor.” He looked at me and said, “Let’s see how long that lasts.” I was so open and excited about everything, and I think I still am. I feel like I’m almost at a new beginning again.
For a phase, I felt very in my head and insecure about the work I was doing. I was overthinking so much. I felt like I lost this sense of instinct and intuition that I really had before.
The irony is that I could tell I wasn’t happy because I was being extremely binary about acting. I’d do a scene on House of the Dragon, and I’d give myself a “yes” or a “no.” Of course, the irony there is that what we’re trying to do with acting and art is to live in the nuance, and there’s not a right or a wrong. And so, I had to go on quite an internal journey of trying to get this binary thinking out of my head because I was just really getting stuck on making “correct” decisions. And that doesn’t exist. There’s just a decision.
But it’s very hard with acting sometimes because, especially with film and TV, this thing of everything being possible. Then suddenly you’ve done the scene, and at some point, you’re going to watch it, and you’re like, “Well, that’s that.” It’s hard not to attack your own work.
blazer, bolero + skirt. Bora Aksu
shoes. Gina
earrings. Tasaki
opposite
dress + jewellery. Valentino
I read in another interview that you held yourself to unfair standards given the scope and size of the show. How do you overcome that?
For me, it was about having a reality check. One of the things that really helped me have a reality check was to go back and do what felt very pure and honest to me in the beginning, which is make-do theatre: to work and create and be imaginative and laugh and get things wrong with my friends. A really close friend of mine, Jules (Julia) Head, who’s a director, directed me in an audio drama for Audible.
It was basically us and these other amazing actors in this booth for two weeks, nine hours a day. I felt my heart kind of break open again. This is what it used to feel like. Now, I’m not scared of that. I can just do that. Then I can take that into the work that I’m feeling intimidated by. It keeps going back to the childlike wonder, doesn’t it? It was about trying to get back there.
I’d like to touch on The Maids. You captioned a photo on Instagram with “My skin, my blisters,” and then put in parentheses, “my sisters.” Can you talk to us about that caption and forging that bond with Yerin (Ha) and Lydia (Wilson)? How much translated onto the stage?
I forgot that I wrote that because that’s Cockney rhyming slang. My skin and blister are Cockney rhyming slang for my sister. I adore that expression so much because I think it’s so true about sisterhood. It’s much grittier and more hands-on and aggressive and sensory and messy.
That thing about your skin, I feel like it’s kind of a good metaphor, because you might think of skin as something to be polished. It’s this big organ, and it’s got these freckles and hairs. If I’m stressed or whatever, I’ll break out and get blotchy and get rashes all over, and it’s this reactive thing. Anyway, that was a complete sidetrack. It kind of speaks to the relationship with Lydia and Yerin because in The Maids, it’s a play about carnal need and people who are cruel to each other. It’s about two sisters who love each other so much that it tips into this really unhealthy thing.
The play is also about the relationship with Madame, who Yerin plays, and they’re so obsessed with her. They think she’s so beautiful that they want to destroy her and kill her. We had to do and say and feel really awful things towards each other. What was so funny about it is that we fell in love with each other so much. We got so close that it meant that we could really enjoy being disgusting to each other.
It was such a cool experience because it’s only if you really trust people and love each other that much that you can explore all of that darkness. It’s so exciting because you can go anywhere and do anything, and you know that they’re completely present and with you and going to find it fun. We were really pushing the limits. With Lydia, we played sisters, and we would get on so well with each other in real life. On stage, if one of us tripped up on a word or took a wrong step, we’d be pointing at each other, humiliating each other. We loved it so much. It was so intense, but it was so fun.
Solange and Claire are both delightfully psychotic and murderous. How freeing was it for you to tap into that? Was there a moment you took yourself by surprise?
Oh my gosh, yes. That thing you say about surprise is really interesting because I’ve been thinking a lot since doing The Maids that that feeling of “surprise” is really what I’m going for. That’s how I want to surprise myself because I think that keeps things alive. I think that it made me realize, especially doing it, the difference between an English audience and an American audience. Both lovely audiences. But in London, we’re in a much smaller space at the Donmar, and we were very close to people, and we were in their space. Whereas there was something quite a bit more epic about the New York staging. It made me realize, taking in both those audiences, that a laugh comes out of surprise and a cry comes out of surprise.
That’s why theatre is so incredible, because I could do that to myself on stage and not know it was coming. You’re so together with the audience in that moment of, like, letting it be whatever it’s going to be.
Disgustingness-wise, it was so freeing and also so terrifying to play a character who needs so much and really wears that on the outside of her body. It felt amazing because, in reality, I don’t want anyone to see me and think I’m a goblin. We all feel that. As an actor, you feel outside of work that you want to look appealing, and you want people to think that you’re appealing. There’s this weird feeling of having to be a good palette to be projected upon so that you can be imagined as anything.
Getting to be inside of a character who feels disgusting and behaves in this really animal way felt amazing. But it was also challenging because I got paranoid. I was like, “The audience must think I’m a freak and they don’t like me.” I was having to check myself because all of that character stuff is coming through. If they do feel uncomfortable, then that’s cool as well. That should also be the point of it. I was creating stories in my head about people in the audience and what they were thinking about me. I had to keep checking back in: “Don’t go insane. Just don’t go insane.”
blouse. Stella McCartney
skirt. 16Arlington
shoes. Paris Texas
rings. Cartier
opposite
trench coat. Burberry
How did you walk away from a persona like that at the end of every performance? Because it sounds like you’re going from the highest high and then the curtain closes and you drop.
In London, I think what was gorgeous was that I could see my friends and my boyfriend, and none of them are actors. I mean, sorry, a lot of my friends are actors, but the ones I could see have nothing to do with the show is what I mean. I could just be completely honest and check back in with the world. Be interested in other people’s lives and not just be that actress who’s having a moment, you know what I mean?
In New York, it was more challenging, which was also interesting because we were outside of our routines and our daily lives. But it’s so interesting you asked me that question because I feel like I’ve very recently had a real, quite conscious expulsion of the character. The album that I was listening to the whole time I was playing Solange was Lorde’s Virgin album. My boyfriend and I went to see her on the Ultrasound tour. We were in France, and we saw her in an amphitheatre. It was so incredible.
When she played the song that was my Solange song, I made sure to have a moment when it ended of just being like, “Thank you,” and let her go. I needed to consciously, lovingly expel this character. I had this amazing full-circle moment where I was using this album to help me for the part, then to hear it out loud and to see Lorde performing it—she’s such an incredible performer—it felt like a really cool experience and the perfect place to let Solange go.
You’ve lived in Helena’s skin for so long now. Three seasons. One of the advantages of there not being a whole lot of source material to pull from is that you get to really play around. How do you build a character up from the page, whether it’s the source material or from the script? How do you figure out what choices work for a character versus what doesn’t? How do you find that magic?
How do I find the magic? That’s such a good question. I think with Helena there was quite a lot of juicy information in the script. She’s half-sister to the promised queen, had these two brothers who are very intense personalities themselves. The only sister with a mother who’s been forced into this incredible political situation, with a father who’s dying, all of that stuff, on top of the fact that I knew that she was quite misunderstood, loved these insects and all of that. To me, already, that is a lot of delicious information to build a character from.
Then, after that, genuinely, I had ideas. When you’re on that set, and you get to put the wig on and that costume on, I felt something really clarify then. It started as, “Okay, so she’s this princess and she’s wearing this dress, but what if she hates wearing the dress? What if she’s uncomfortable in the dress? How would I stand if I’m trying to will myself out of this situation? How do I hold myself when I need to escape into my mind and I want to just be in this tiny world?”
What’s really, really fun about playing Helena is that I’ve always felt this permission to do whatever I want. Which is so nice. It’s such a gift to be in these high-stakes situations and get to play against it. She has a quiet heroism to her, but she never has to be the hero. From season one to now, you’re making these little choices, and then you see them make the cut.
I have to ask: there’s a scene where she’s dancing by herself. Was that in the script, or was that all you?
I think all of that came from the fact that we had a great dance teacher when we were doing that. She was teaching us all these specific moves. It was this cool combination of something kind of mystical, but would then vaguely be based on. Harry (Collett) and I really found it funny to play with the fact that Helena might get carried away. She’s never been asked to dance before. Suddenly it’s happening — he’s not freestyling but really excited about it.
I think that we went off the set moves quite a bit. There’s a chance that it could look like I’m dancing by myself, but it’s because Harry’s doing the correct moves, and Helena’s doing the wrong moves. It might be that because she’s got carried away.
Another moment that sticks out this season is, “I will not let any beast be harmed.” The look that she gives Alicent is like, “Mom, did I do good?” Even though they’re in this really heinous situation, she’s looking for approval.
I love that. Liv (Olivia Cooke) and I spend so much time together because we do everything together. I feel really relaxed around Liv; she’s so present. I feel like anything I give her or she gives me, we can really build that mother-daughter relationship out of it. I remember doing a few takes where I offered to do that look to her. I said, “Maybe they won’t include that,” because this is all quite serious and the stakes are high. But I was genuinely surprised when I watched that episode for the first time. I was like, “Oh, it made it in.”
That scene alone has been the centre of fan edits on TikTok.
That’s so nice. People are really into the chicken line as well, it seems. [laughs]
I love that we’re also seeing Helena putting her foot down with Alicent this season, biting back a little bit, refusing the tea, having an outburst. She is the most innocent of the Greens, but I don’t blame her for being absolutely fed up. What has been your favourite moment playing Helena so far?
My gosh, that’s such a good question. It’s not something I really thought about. I wonder if I haven’t thought about it because it’s intense to think that it’s been all these years and, you know, it won’t be forever. In season one, we had a scene where we were all together at the dinner table. It was Visery’s (Paddy Considine) last dinner. All of us were there, which has never ever happened again. It felt really gorgeous, like a twisted Christmas dinner.
We all knew we were never going to be together again as well. I remember I sat opposite Rhys (Ifans), and Liv and I were next to Tom (Glynn-Carney) and Ewan (Mitchell), and then, you know, Matt (Smith) and Emma (D’Arcy) and Phoebs (Phoebe Campbell) and Bethany (Antonia) and Harry and Elliot (Grihault) and all of them. I’m just going to list everyone that’s in the show. [laughs] It was this amazing thing. I was looking around at all of these amazing actors, but also all these characters and watching everybody make these specific choices for these characters that are never going to make it on camera, but they’re doing it anyway. I mean, people are doing interesting things all the time, which has been such a gift of working on this show.
I think that felt like a really big moment for me as Helena, because when you work with actors that are that talented, that acting is, I mean, it’s a cliché, but it really is for free. I was immediately transported to, “What’s my relationship with all these people? What’s my relationship in this family? What’s my relationship to this world?” That was easy, because everyone is so fucking good.
That’s a very cheap answer. But that was the last time we were all together. So, it will always be in my heart.
top. Louis Vuitton
opposite
full look. Prada
I love that answer, are you kidding? Not cheap at all. What has playing Helena taught you about yourself as a person and as an actor?
That’s such a good question. Thank you for stroking my ego. I still feel like I’m in the very early stages of my career, so this could all change. I could have another crisis tomorrow. But for now, I’m being soppy because I’m looking back at it all.
I think I feel like I’m learning about just trusting that I know the character. Therefore, the choices I make couldn’t be too weird. It couldn’t be too much. I trust myself with her, and I feel like I know her. So, I feel free. I’m trying to let my positive experience of playing Helena teach me that it’s worth it to just follow my instincts and to really try and keep going with that, because that’s what feels good to do. So why would I inhibit that to be safe? You have to trust the amazing people that you work with, that if you do something absolutely bonkers, they’ll just edit it out. It’s okay. Do you know what I mean?
That must feel very freeing to be able to trust yourself and to trust the people around you to be a safety net. Like, if you fall, they’ll catch you.
I’m working on it. I love Helena. Something that I’ve thought about a lot with her is this feeling that she grows up in a world that values what’s useful and what’s powerful, and what’s going to get you where you need to go. I really respect and love and think it’s brave that she loves things, not for how useful they are, and not even for how literally beautiful something is, but for the beauty that she can find in it. She sees the world in such an interesting way, and with so much sensitivity. I just love that, and anytime I get to spend in that zone is happy time.
Lastly, if you could rewrite Helena’s fate, no spoilers, obviously, what would you like her ideal ending to be?
I’m going to give you a political answer. I think that the story is the story, and it’s quite Helena of me, but it’s the way it was always going to go. I think that I just want her to feel love. That’s really what I want. I just want her to feel love. So, that’s such a political answer, but that’s what I think.
A political answer, but a valid answer. Honestly, I just want her to take Dreamfyre and her kids and get the hell out of Westeros.
Also, very, very valid.
dress, shoes + jewellery. Valentino
photography. Simon Lipman @ Ray Brown Represents
fashion. Harriet Nicolson @ Stella Creative Artists
talent. Phia Saban
casting. Emma Fleming
hair. Sandra Hahnel @ Caren Agency using Ouai
make up. Brooke Simons @ Caren Agency
production. Clara La Rosa
interview. Dana Reboe
editor. Kelsey Barnes
location. Town Hall Hotel
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